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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 7/25/2010 11:10:35 AM
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its_GO_time
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I'm 650 pgs into it, and I think I started it last July(other books take a back seat to The Word). I originally borrowed it from the library, and after several renews, and fines, I went and bought a copy. Seldom do I ever read fiction, but the characters, are well written. I've done a wiki search on the book, so I kind of know what's going to happen, so discussing it, isn't spoiling anything for me.
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 7/26/2010 11:07:41 AM
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Abbreviated
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
quote:
And how would we know unless we read it ? I didn't find her books anti-Christian.
Have to disagree with your there. This book is plainly pushing her atheistic views. Perhaps the only thing she had in common with the Communist was they both were anti-God and anti-religion.
Would you mind giving examples ?
I can see the difference between capitalism & socialism. That is obvious to me.
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 7/26/2010 8:00:53 PM
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its_GO_time
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quote:
*Do you think people's jobs or professions define them? Does Rand?
*How do you think Rand views the public or citizens in general?
*Do you find this novel to reflect how you view the world? A little? A lot? Not at all?
*How does Rand define 'morality?' Which characters are 'moral' and why?
*Did you find the characters more flat or 3-dimensional? Were certain characters more developed then others? Why?
*Only if they want it to. Rand, IMO is merely writing of pursuing excellence in whatever you do.
*It depends upon if they are the producers, or the looters
(more answers, later)
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"If we would rise to dignity, it must be by considering his humiliation
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 7/27/2010 7:24:44 PM
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its_GO_time
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*Do you think people's jobs or professions define them? Does Rand?
Only if they want it to. Rand, IMO is merely writing of pursuing excellence in whatever you do.
*How do you think Rand views the public or citizens in general? It depends upon if they are the producers, or the looters
*Do you find this novel to reflect how you view the world? A little? A lot? Not at all?As a libertiarian leaning, conservative, it does a little.
*How does Rand define 'morality?' Which characters are 'moral' and why?
Through freedom. Freedom to be the best you possibly can. And in her opinion(not necessarily mine), Dangy, Rearden(other than him signing the Gift Certificate), Galt, D'Anaconda, were the 'moral' charachaters, because they pursued their passions, unlike Dangy's brother, who takes the easy road.
*Did you find the characters more flat or 3-dimensional? Were certain characters more developed then others? Why? Still reading- cannot really draw that conclusion yet
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"If we would rise to dignity, it must be by considering his humiliation
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 7/29/2010 2:59:27 PM
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Auben
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Do you think its possible to create a society of 'producers?'
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 7/29/2010 7:50:46 PM
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its_GO_time
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ORIGINAL: Auben
Do you think its possible to create a society of 'producers?'
I think that the USA, for the most part, has been a society of producers-Hence the fact, that Rand based her book in this country.
However, little, by little, the politicos, have discovered, what the founding fathers warned of: that elections would be based upon how many goodies, they could deliver to their constituents. So here we are, waiting for goodies, and stimilus cash, instead of looking for opportunity.
One of my favorite quotes from the book:
"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
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"If we would rise to dignity, it must be by considering his humiliation
and his sorrow." -C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 7/30/2010 5:04:29 PM
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SurfFirst
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ORIGINAL: Auben
Has anyone read Rand before? What do you think of her philosophy and other books?
I just purchased this book and so far have only read the information explaining her philosophy on objectivism. It shall be an interesting read.
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 8/13/2010 6:32:21 PM
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Narcil
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I read Atlas Shrugged for the first time just a couple of months ago. I have to say that I found the plot compelling and largely enjoyed the read.
It's interesting to me that at least one person so far has pointed out that Ms. Rand's thoughtful approach to economics and business (which I generally agreed with) was not matched by a similarly thoughtful approach to religion. I don't find that particularly strange myself - many people have areas of specialty which about which they have important and substantive things to say, but hold essentially a cardboard caricature of some other philosophical question.
Rand's problem with religion, and Christianity in particular, is several fold:
1) She doesn't seem to know much about Christianity. In John Galt's speech, she clearly mis-characterizes Christianity and it's ends.
2) She is a Social Darwinist, believing that only the strongest should survive; which is somewhat true in business, but can't really be applied to individuals within society at large. Her understanding of charity as a pipeline of wasted resources to bottom feeders and non-producers largely taints her view of Christianity. She points out herself that Christianity is responsible for much of the charity work that goes on in the world, and given her low view of charity in general that low esteem is then redirected upon the Church.
3) She is a materialist. We are meat all the way down in her view. Thus, the problem that Christianity exists to solve, that of bridging the gap between God and man is unnecessary because there is no God, there is no such thing as sin, and mans only real problem is how he deals with the looters who suck away the resources of the innovators and the producers. Therefore, the justification for the existence of Christianity is a fiction.
While Rand is an interesting and valuable contributor to the philosophy of economics, "Objectivism" suffers a nearly mortal wound as a theory because Rand has failed to grasp the reality of the problem which Christianity exists to fight against: Sin.
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 8/14/2010 4:15:59 PM
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its_GO_time
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quote:
Has anyone read Rand before?
No, but years ago, I was introduced to her through the rock group Rush(listen to the song "The Trees", it kind of encapsulates her philosophy)
quote:
Rand's problem with religion, and Christianity in particular, is several fold:
1) She doesn't seem to know much about Christianity. In John Galt's speech, she clearly mis-characterizes Christianity and it's ends.
2) She is a Social Darwinist, believing that only the strongest should survive; which is somewhat true in business, but can't really be applied to individuals within society at large. Her understanding of charity as a pipeline of wasted resources to bottom feeders and non-producers largely taints her view of Christianity. She points out herself that Christianity is responsible for much of the charity work that goes on in the world, and given her low view of charity in general that low esteem is then redirected upon the Church.
3) She is a materialist. We are meat all the way down in her view. Thus, the problem that Christianity exists to solve, that of bridging the gap between God and man is unnecessary because there is no God, there is no such thing as sin, and mans only real problem is how he deals with the looters who suck away the resources of the innovators and the producers. Therefore, the justification for the existence of Christianity is a fiction.
Actually, I've encountered all of these in the views of some of those, who name Christ as savior.
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"If we would rise to dignity, it must be by considering his humiliation
and his sorrow." -C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 8/16/2010 7:09:03 PM
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Narcil
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quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
Actually, I've encountered all of these in the views of some of those, who name Christ as savior.
Of course, we probably all know Christians who don't know all that much about Christianity.
While I can understand how a Christian can be a Social Darwinist on the level of business, I have a hard time understanding how a follower of Christ can be one on the social level. I think that often too much charity is given to people who will never use it to pick themselves up and am vehemently opposed to wasting charity on such types. However, there are some who should be helped and will improve themselves given the opportunity and resources.
I'm not entirely sure how you could have met a Christian who was a materialist. By definition, a materialist doesn't believe the spiritual exists, and therefore must deny God. Kinda hard to be a Christian while denying God.
Rand's problem on the religious front, and it's her primary weakness on the economic front, is that, because of the above views she holds, she denies sin and it's power over people. Sure, I'm a believer in capitalism because I believe that it harnesses potentially destructive instincts in man and steers them in a productive direction. However, man is so broken that even the threat of potential loss of customers/business/living is not enough to keep him on the straight and narrow.
Man's problem is sin, and it's a problem Rand doesn't even acknowledge (again, I say this as a genuine fan of her work).
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 8/23/2010 11:20:09 PM
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jazzact13
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I'm not entirely sure how you could have met a Christian who was a materialist. By definition, a materialist doesn't believe the spiritual exists, and therefore must deny God. Kinda hard to be a Christian while denying God.
A bit off-topic, I know, but there are such creatures out there, and others who are nearly so--God is the universe, or some kind of force (yes, much like Star Wars, but without various kinds of knights to make it interesting).
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RE: July Book Club: Atlas Shrugged - 8/24/2010 3:08:12 PM
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Narcil
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
A bit off-topic, I know, but there are such creatures out there, and others who are nearly so--God is the universe, or some kind of force (yes, much like Star Wars, but without various kinds of knights to make it interesting).
Certainly, there are people who claim to be Christians, in that they consider themselves to be followers of Christ, but who don't believe in God and thus don't believe that Jesus was divine. These people must take a very truncated view of Jesus' own teachings about himself.
Someone who believes that "god" is a "force" is not a materialist. Just really confused.
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"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all. But whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess." - Martin Luther
My blog: Here
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